Comments - Greatest Hard-Bop Jazz Musicians.
October 10, 2004 thru March 25, 2005. |
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Monk, Mingus, and Brubeck have always confused me a little. They have
always been some of my favorites, but I never knew what style they
were. I went on allmusic.com a few days ago and looked up their best
albums. They said Brilliant Corners was hard-bop (if you listen to a
few of the tracks, especially Bolivar Blues [i'll just spell it like
that, they spell it wierd on the album], it is hard bop, just in Monk
form). They said Mingus Ah Um was a mixture of Avant Garde, Post Bop,
and Hard Bop. I didn't really hear any avant garde in there, unless
you listen to Bird Calls. That's way out. I knew it was post bop.
Hard Bop, I always considered it a little, but that's just because I
don't hear much of a difference between post and hard. Than I looked
up Time Out. I was suprised (because I never knew what style this
was), they said it was west cost cool. I guess it is a little, but
I'm gonna have to listen to it again (haven't hear it in a while).
What do you guys think?
Austin, you know a TON about hard bop, and I'll take your
considerations most of the time on this list. You've been a huge
help. I'll check out those names.
Peter, Genius of Modern Music has always been in the hard bop
category to me too. It's still hard for me to say, because like I've
already said, those three are hard to describe. I'll lower Monk on
this list (even though he's still the greatest jazz pianist, just
probably not hard bop).
Alvin
- Friday, March 25, 2005 at 16:52:17 (EST)
The question over Monk being hard bop is a pretty complex one, and I
was swaying towards no...until I heard Genius in Modern Music. I know
the sound of hard bop and what is and what isn't can be debated until
the sun comes down, or up, or whatever, the sounds that Thelonious
makes with his band are definitely hard bop. And the guy just smokes
behind piano. I'm not sure about 1 still, I'll need to think about it,
but the guy certainly was hard bop at times.
Peter the great
- Wednesday, March 23, 2005 at 00:30:44 (EST)
Whoops, I meant to say Eddie Costa and Vic Feldman made significant
records on vibes. I also forgot to mention B3 legend Hank Marr, from
Columbus, Ohio (I think) who passed away recently. Although he made
few records, he was an organ guru to many "hard-bop" B3 players.
Austin Bealmear
Nashville, TN USA - Tuesday, March 22, 2005 at 17:52:46 (EST)
Thanks for the question Alvin, it's nice to be asked. When it comes to
organ, the line between "hard-bop" and "soul-jazz" gets pretty hard to
find. On B3, there's Don Patterson, Baby-Face Willette, Freddie Roach,
and Richard "Groove" Holmes who all recorded for hard-bop labels like
Blue Note, Prestige, and Muse. Patterson and Holmes had long careers
and many albums. Willette and Roach didn't really record after the mid-
60's, but their old Blue Notes go for high prices now.
Johnny "Hammond" Smith was also happening in the 60's, but hardly
recorded at all after 1971, and of these 5 could be called more on the
soul/groove side. Regarding your current list, most critics consider
Larry Young and Lonnie Smith more on the soul/space jazz area than
hard-bop, although both started their careers with straight ahead
blues and bop records. And Larry Goldings and Joey DeFrancesco belong
on a list of excellent current practioners rather than classic hard-
boppers. I could see you having 2 lists for each instrument: best 10
originators and best 5 current gneration players. On vibes, I'd dump
Hampton, Tjader, Norvo, Burton, Maineri, and Nelson just because they
never really played in the hard-bop style. Tjader's pre-Latin stuff is
more West Coast sounding to me, but he and Pollard are a tough call,
especially if you broaden the idea of hard-bop to include a lot of
what was happening in the 50's and 60's. Instead, I recommend Lem
Winchester, Buddy Montgomery, Johnny Lytle, Walt Dickerson, Dave Pike,
Eddie Costa and Vic Feldman. Lem, Buddy, and Johnny recorded for
Prestige and Riverside. Walt recorded for Prestige in the 60's
although he was a little more "avant garde", for Steeplechase in the
70's, and may still be playing around his native Philadelphia. In the
60's Dave Pike's style was considered a little more harmonically
advanced than strict hard-bop, but so was Teddy Charles. Pike may
still be playing in LA. Eddie and Vic were pianists who doubled on
vibes, but made significant records on those instruments. Check out
Vic's vibe work with Cannonball and on other Riveside records, that's
hard-bop for sure. Let's see what your other site visitors think about
these artists. And keep up the good work, Alvin.
Austin Bealmear
Nashville, TN USA - Tuesday, March 22, 2005 at 17:47:01 (EST)
While I was serched for news about the best jazz records of all
the time, I discovered this web site. Wonderful! I'll visit it every day.
I am listening Horace Silver (Song for my father) and in the last
week I bought the best 10 jazz cds. I ...hope! To list the best jazz
cds is very difficult! (At this moment Mr Horace is on a vibrant
...solo!)
Bye. Antonio.
antonio
palermo, italy sicily - Sunday, March 20, 2005 at 13:41:16 (EST)
As a person who loves jazz and the hard bop to no end. (I often tell
people if I could go back in time I would love to have been a Jazz
musician during the late 1940' thru the 1960's or a barnstorming ball
player in the Negro baseball league). I fine listing these incredible
men very difficult. I will refrain from any further ratings, although
I would like to offer some anecdotical comments. Thank You for
creating this site. JAZZ IS ALIVE.
John G.
Los Angeles, - Sunday, March 20, 2005 at 11:42:59 (EST)
Mingus as the #1 hard bop bassist??? Mingus is a very heavy composer
and arranger. He is sort of like the Monk of the bass. His music is
rooted in the Duke tradition. I love his consciousness and fire.
John G.
Los Angeles, - Sunday, March 20, 2005 at 11:27:06 (EST)
John, Grachan Moncur III is a avant garde/free jazz guy. He's on the
overall trombone list, but not this one in particular. I know Hampton
shouldn't be on this list, but I didn't really know that many
vibraphonists at the time.
Alvin
- Sunday, March 20, 2005 at 00:14:08 (EST)
Horace Sliver is the hardbop pianist. The listings are really a
strecth.
Hampton on vibes??? That should be Hutcherson. Read about Hampton's
reaction to Clifford, Quincy and his hot band on their 1953 European
trip. They had to ditch Hamp in order to record some Hard bop. I'll
have to give Hampton some more ear time. Hard bop drummer, Higgins is
right on Art's tail. Where in the world is Joe Chambers and Roy Haynes?
John G.
Los Angeles, - Friday, March 18, 2005 at 22:23:15 (EST)
Trombone and no Grachan Moncur III. I just saw him two weeks ago in
Claremont (with Bennie Maupin). All original tunes. Read his interview
in Jazz Times,and you'll see why he is overlooked.
John
Los Angeles, - Friday, March 18, 2005 at 21:55:56 (EST)
(Note - I'm putting this on all of the jazz pages [even though it
ain't that big of a deal])
I've been doing a lot of the 'favorites of ddd' lists. So far I have
done
Miles Davis (Added to the site)
Charles Mingus (Added to the site)
Louis Armstrong
Milt Jackson
Duke Ellington
That's 5. We're aloud to do 6. I can't decide between these 2. Lee
Morgan and Clifford Brown. I was gonna ask you guys which one I
should do. What do you think?
Alvin
- Tuesday, March 15, 2005 at 23:58:00 (EST)
Austin, I was thinking the same thing about a week ago too (putting Horace
about Monk), and although most of Monk's music was pure Monk, he did some
great stuff with Blakey (Straight, No Chaser [which I consider hard bop, a little
bit] and even a whole album, I think it's even called "Art Blakey and the Jazz
Messengers, featuring Thelonious Monk"). He did some cool stuff, but he will
be lowered, because he isn't really hard bop. And Austin, it's obvious you know
a lot about hard bop (and jazz I gotta add), so would you happen to know any
jazz vibraphonists and organists that could make the list? Because some of the
people I included on the two lists aren't even close to being hard bop (they
were like funk and stuff). Thanks.
Alvin
- Friday, March 04, 2005 at 19:51:18 (EST)
After looking through Thelonious Monk's discography, I have changed my
opinion, and don't see how you could not include him. Regardless of
his unique style, or his bebop innovations of the 40's, by the time
his recording career got rolling in the 50's, he used many of the hard
boppers as side men, from Blakey to Rollins to Griffin. "Brilliant
Corners" is an excellent example. Re: ranking though, I would put
others like Silver ahead of Monk just because their style defined the
classic funky hard bop piano style. Monk, God bless him, was never
less than his own man.
Austin Bealmear
Nashville, TN USA - Tuesday, March 01, 2005 at 01:40:58 (EST)
After a couple of months, I see the discussion is as lively as ever on
who and what is "hard bop", so let's applaud Alvin for keeping this
valuable site going. I respect his idea of being flexible on the
albums, but I stand my ground on the opinion that if a musician is
ranked for his contribution to the HB style, the album you pick to
represent the artist should also be an example of that contribution.
Therefore, although Miles could be represented by the
Columbia "Milestones", (but not ESP) why not pick one of the earlier
Prestige or United Artists records from the mid-50's that historians
agree helped define the HB style? As for Larry Coryell, a fine
guitarist, I don't think he or some of the other guitarists belong on
the list at all, certainly not as hard boppers. As I said on Dec. 8,
there are half a dozen guitarists from the 50's and 60's that belong
on there before guys like Ellis, Paul, and Malone. One I didn't
include is Pat Martino, who played with many of the organists on your
list in the early 60's. As for Wynton, I agree with Marcinkiewicz, as
you can also see in the Dec. 8 comments. I hadn't thought of Red since
he is so identified with bebop, but historically, he certainly
deserves consideration before Wynton. As for Monk, that's a real
interesting discussion. I wouldn't have thought of listing him just
because he is so identified with the earlier creation of bebop, he
rarely recorded as a sideman, and both he and his groups had such a
unique singular style. I am not aware of any albums Monk made with
Horace Silver or Lee Morgan. He did make a fine Atlantic disc with
Blakey, and one on Riverside for Clark Terry that could be considered
HB albums. So this is one that could probably be debated forever. But
certainly Silver belongs at No. 1 on a hard bop list. Re: Yusef
Lateef, I had been given some tips on how to approach him and as a
result he was quite nice. I knew he was recovering from some medical
work, so I didn't keep him, but he mentioned some interesting
orchestral projects he had coming up this year. I have found most top
jazzmen/women are pretty easy to talk to, depending on the attitude
they detect in your approach. Sometimes just being too dumb to know
any better works great, like the time in college we invited Monk and
his quartet to our crummy student apartment for a party after one of
their concerts. Monk and his wife Nellie actually came, and Monk was
not only conversant, he held court like the high priest of bop he was.
It was a night to remember.
Austin Bealmear
Nashville, TN USA - Tuesday, March 01, 2005 at 00:52:43 (EST)
BOLSHIT
jacquelle jolly
balrmore, usa maryland - Wednesday, February 23, 2005 at 17:43:27 (EST)
Full-blown Monk is -Monk-, so unless you're willing to put him at #1 on the
'Monk' list, leave him be.
m
- Wednesday, February 16, 2005 at 14:37:23 (EST)
Yeah, I'm gonna switch his album (either to E.S.P. or to Milestones). But this is
actually ranked in artists, not by albums. Kind of Blue is the best album without
a doubt. These albums are just to showcase talent.
Alvin
- Tuesday, February 15, 2005 at 21:50:30 (EST)
Kind of Blue shouldn't even be included on this list, for it is by no
means a hard bop album. It's modal Jazz.
Peter the great
- Tuesday, February 15, 2005 at 20:31:45 (EST)
If Miles Davis' Kind of Blue is the best jazz album of all time, why is it only the THIRD best
hard bop trumpet album? Please explain.
jimothy
- Tuesday, February 15, 2005 at 19:54:39 (EST)
Alvin, you're still making it seem like Blakey snapped his fingers
and hard bop was created. I won't elaborate further on this though,
there's a post by Austin earlier on this page that explains it the
best.
Peter the great
- Tuesday, February 08, 2005 at 16:52:59 (EST)
To omit Red Rodney from the hard boppin' trumpet list is a disrespect
to the instrument. miles admired him, so can you apes.
bump wynton down and give red his spot; wynton's the middle child,
anyway, and he plays like it.
Marcinkiewicz
Greenbrae, CA Jazzland - Tuesday, February 08, 2005 at 02:21:34 (EST)
But I guess I can put Horace Silver at 1 and Monk at 4, is that ok?
Alvin
- Saturday, February 05, 2005 at 13:28:48 (EST)
Steve, maybe you need to redefine Monk. Monk was a major BOP pianist and
composer. He played gigs with Diz, Bird, Kenny Clarke, Charles Mingus (when
he was bop too) and Dex (and when he was bop too!). And he also played on
hardbop albums with Art Blakey (the creator of hard bop) Horace Silver (the
other creator of hardbop) and Lee Morgan (the follower of hardbop).
Alvin
- Saturday, February 05, 2005 at 13:28:08 (EST)
I don't see how Larry Coryell's "Back together again" can be called
anything but fusion.
Kelly R. Cordner
- Thursday, February 03, 2005 at 17:13:20 (EST)
steve, that's funny, Was it not monk who was at minton's playhouse creating bop? with
kenny clark, charlie christen and all that. I don't know about hard bop really, but if he
helped create bop, I don't think it would be a stretch to play it hard.
mark rios
- Wednesday, February 02, 2005 at 03:55:14 (EST)
What??? Thelonious Monk as #1 hard bop pianist? You must be
smoking dope. Monk was never a bop pianist, much less a hard
bop pianist.
Either you need to redefine hard bop, or you need to redefine
Monk. Egregious error which will mislead readers unless you
correct it.
Monk was an incredible genius, but not a bop or hard bop player.
Steve Barbone
Oxford, PA USA - Friday, January 28, 2005 at 10:07:41 (EST)
Gerry Zaragemca,(Master Percussionists),have been in music for 37
years ,teaching for 15 years,African,Afrocuban,Caribbean,Brazilian,and
Jazz percussion(drums).An author of several articles in relation to
(zaragemca's bongos,congas,timbales,and Bata),(zaragemca's brief on
jazz),etc.A session musician and performer.Founder of International
Club of Percussionists.
Gerry Zaragemca
Houston, TX U.S.A. - Thursday, January 20, 2005 at 20:54:19 (EST)
.......You contacted Yusef Lateef?? WE'RE NOT WORTHY!!! Good to hear Terry
Pollard is still alive. But still, you talked to Yusef Lateef???
Alvin
- Friday, January 14, 2005 at 22:57:10 (EST)
I forgot to mention that I contacted Yusef Lateef regarding
pianist/vibist Terry Pollard and he told me that although he had not
worked with her since the end of the 60's, she is still alive and is
in a nursing facility in New York, and being taken care of by her son.
Austin Bealmear
Nashville, TN USA - Wednesday, January 12, 2005 at 02:05:38 (EST)
Thanks for the responses to my comments. This site is a great idea and
I look forward to tracking its further development and continuing
comments by its visitors. If anyone is interested, I host a
documentary radio show called "JAZZ On The Side", which can be heard
via the internet at www.wmot.org every Sunday from 12noon to 1pm,
Central Daylight Time (I think that's what we're in now). The January
16 show will focus on great but underated hard bop drummers Art Taylor
and Charil Persip.
Austin Bealmear
Nashville, TN USA - Wednesday, January 12, 2005 at 02:00:10 (EST)
It's not so difficult Georges, just takes an application of research
and patience. For your own research I highly recommend starting with
the online website, www.allmusic.com
For a website, its amazing how comprehensive it is. Check it out!
underwood
- Tuesday, January 11, 2005 at 17:13:31 (EST)
I think it's a great chef d'ouvre for the people to know perfercly
the name and the hits done by those masters
Georges
Tampa, Fl USA - Thursday, January 06, 2005 at 15:23:27 (EST)
My bad.
Alvin
- Saturday, January 01, 2005 at 00:13:14 (EST)
I wasn't petitioning any more for Miles to be elevated. I was simply
discussing albums.
Peter the great
- Tuesday, December 28, 2004 at 20:41:15 (EST)
Peter, Miles is at number 3, and he's gonna stay at number 3 because
although he has great hard bop albums he was never really focused on hard
bop, his most famous albums are in the 'cool' jazz category and the 'fusion'. I'll
change his album, and I do think he should be here, but that's it. So hate to say
it but that's the end of the Miles conversation.
Alvin
- Thursday, December 23, 2004 at 13:17:30 (EST)
Nice post Austin, you definitely know your hard bop. I'm glad to see
somebody else who thinks Miles could be on the list. Oh, the reason I
mentioned E.S.P was because of his playing. No doubt Walkin was the
more significant recording.
Peter the great
- Saturday, December 18, 2004 at 11:45:11 (EST)
ambitious idea, pretty cool.
zeno
- Friday, December 17, 2004 at 20:41:55 (EST)
Hypothetical situation:
You have the recording artists from MONEY JUNGLE (Ellington, Mingus,
Roach), and you're going to make it a quartet. Who do you use?
To keep it a musician of the age (JUNGLE released in 1962), I'd pick
Eric Dolphy. At that moment, he's so badass, he would just rip the
scene apart.
Your choice?
pf stein
- Thursday, December 09, 2004 at 21:17:52 (EST)
Austin, Lots and Lots of recomendations, cool. I've repeatedly been thinking of
Miles Davis when I revise this list, and I still don' know if he should be included,
just because some people think he should, and some people don't. I didn't
originally have him included. I forgot to change the album for Miles, I was
gonna do "Walkin'" instead of "Kind of Blue". Lee Konitz and Ornette Coleman
were some other people I was wondering about, they had a few hard bop
albums. I'll change Jerome, and I was going to make two other categories. I'm
really lazy right now so I'll be back later.
Alvin
- Thursday, December 09, 2004 at 21:15:47 (EST)
I'd also like to comment on your discussion of Melba Liston and some
other things. Kudos to you for including her, she was a talented and
brave lady who deserves more recognition. But, by her own admission
she was not a hot soloist, and that was never her goal. She took very
few solos with Dizzy's big band, and although she was one of the first
arrangers Diz called when the State Dept. tours were still in the
planning stages, she did not arrange "almost every song". Much of the
book was contributed by Quincy Jones, Ernie Wilkins, and others. This
does not diminish in any way her contribution to sculpting the
distinct sound of that band, or her achievement at being one of the
few working female horn players in the hard bop era. A major omission
on your trombone list is Bennie Green, who made many classic hard bop
albums for Prestige and Blue Note. You're also forgetting about Julian
Priester, Britt Woodman, and others who deserve to be there because
they were part of the actual hard bop era, while Steve Turrre (a very
talented musician) was not. As for the trumpet discussion, where Miles
belongs on the list is almost a pointless question, since he adapted
his totally unique sound to at least 5 major jazz genres during his
career. In spite of the fact that I have personally heard Miles play
as hot as any of the hard boppers, and that some historians consider
his 1952 UA/Blue Note recordings the beginning of the hard bop
movement, I doubt Miles would have considered himself a "hard-bopper".
Since you only have 10 positions, I don't understand the inclusion of
Wynton, a very talented imitator. Especially when you are excluding
some major trumpet men of the actual hard bop era, like Booker Little,
Woody Shaw, Nat Adderley, Dizzy Reece, Bill Hardman, and Louis Smith.
Which brings me to the focus of your very worthy web site: hard bop.
The heading of your site makes it sound like Art Blakey created hard
bop single-handedly, which of course isn't true. Although listening to
8 bars of almost any Blakey album will instantly tell anyone what hard
bop is, both Miles and Clifford were recording in that style before
those first live Messengers' albums came out. And cats in other
cities, particularly Detroit, were also playing very close to that
style in the early 50's. You also can't realy say it was "always" a
small group style. Although the economics of the time couldn't sustain
a working and touring hard bop big band, many hard bop big band
projects came out on Riverside and other labels. And you'd have to say
that Dizzy's State Department band really had more of a hard bop sound
than his original bebop big bands. Re: a couple of other comments. I
agree that "Kind of Blue" is not a hard bop album. If Miles stays on
the list, you should use the 1952 albums, or the 1954 "Walkin" on
Prestige because of their significance to the beginning of hard bop.
Certainly NOT "E.S.P." (a truly great record). I'd think you'd like to
use as examples for each artist their seminal hard bop recordings.
Many of those listed, while good recordings, came much later and are
in a different style. Rahsaan, while one of the most unique talents
jazz ever produced does not belong on a list of hard boppers that
excludes Clifford Jordan, Tina Brooks, Jimmy Forrest, "Lockjaw" Davis,
Johnny Griffin, Jimmy Heath, Harold Land, Teddy Edwards, Gene Ammons,
and a host of others. And as for "chops" alone, any of these would
come before Booker Ervin. Re: alto, Ornette belongs on a different
list, Konitz would laugh to see himself on a list of hard boppers, and
Jerome Richardson was not known as an altoist, and did not play the
instrument at all on "Midnight Oil". You should add a list of "Multi-
instrumentalist" like to polls do, on which both Richardson and Kirk
would surely be included. I suggest instead altoists Frank Strozier,
Ernie Henry, Phil Woods, Gene Quill, Lanny Morgan, Leo Wright, and
Sonny Red. "Hard bop guitar" is almost an oxymoron. But how about Tal
Farlow, Jimmy Raney, Eddie McFadden, Thornel Schwartz, or Barney
Kessel, instead of Coryell, Paul, or Malone. I'm not sure Ellis or
Pass are really hard boppers either, and Jake Langley I don't know.
Pianists Powell and Hancock probably don't belong, in spite of their
major historic significance, as opposed to true hard boppers like
Junior Mance, Mal Waldron, Ray Bryant, Jackie Byard, Barry Harris,
Cedar Walton, Harold Mabern, Walter Bishop, Hampton Hawes, Russ
Freeman, and many others. As for B3 - Freddie Roach, Don Patterson or
Baby-Face Willette certainly belong there before excellent keyboardist
Larry Goldings. I see now that Terry Pollard is on the vibes list,
which is a little strange, she only played them occasionally, like as
a feature with Terry Gibbs. There were not many vibists in the hard
bop era, but you shouldn't forget Johnny Lytle, Lem Winchester, Buddy
Montgomery, Walt Dickerson, Dave Pike or even pianists Eddie Costa and
Vic Feldman, especially as opposed to the modernists you have listed
or the swing-oriented Hampton and Norvo. I can't complain about your
bass list, although the great Ray Brown is pretty categoryless, and
plenty of others could be included. With the drummers, again if you're
talking about significant to the hard bop style, Connie Kay, T. S.
Monk, and "Smitty" Smith don't really belong before Charli Persip, G.
T. Hogan, Roy Brooks, Joe Chambers, Frank Butler, Danny Richmond,
Shadow Wilson, Dave Bailey, Lex Humphries, Albert Heath, and a host of
others. Your web site is a great forum for discussions like this on a
great period of jazz. Keep up the good work.
Austin Bealmear
Nashville, TN USA - Wednesday, December 08, 2004 at 00:52:58 (EST)
Hmm, She might be I don't know. But I never heard her play piano, only vibes. If
I ever find out if she is still alive or not, I'll tell you.
Alvin
- Wednesday, December 08, 2004 at 00:35:25 (EST)
I found your site in looking for info on female pianist Terry Pollard
from Detroit. Google said this site listed Terry Pollard as a great
hard bop pianist, but I can't find any mention of her. She had a
stroke in the 80's, do you know if she is still alive and where?
Austin Bealmear
Nashville, TN USA - Tuesday, December 07, 2004 at 22:24:22 (EST)
- - - - - The List Was Revised At This Point - 11/26/04 - - - - -
Ok Peter I'll tell Lew to do that today. I sent in the revisions yesterday so today
there should be some new names. Thanks.
Alvin
- Friday, November 26, 2004 at 13:17:50 (EST)
Alvin, something I forgot to tell you a while back. If you move Miles
up, you may wanna change his best hard bop album. 'Kind of Blue' is
really modal/cool jazz. I suggest one of his second quintet albums
aka 'E.S.P' as an album showcase.
Peter the great
- Friday, November 26, 2004 at 09:49:02 (EST)
wolfman, I was gonna add McCoy, just kinda forgot. Jimmy Garrison might be
added too. Thanks.
Alvin
- Friday, November 12, 2004 at 00:50:13 (EST)
I would recommend that you add the other two members of John
Coltrane's famed quartet, McCoy Tyner and Jimmy Garrison. While
Garrison never recorded an album with himself as the headlinder, he
is without question one of the best. If you need to ask for credits,
all I cany say is A LOVE SUPREME.
As for McCoy, he's everywhere on piano. A strong #5 placement.
Also, I highly recommend Ahmad Jamal for placement. Many of his
orchestrations influenced the manner Miles Davis wrote some of his
classics.
wolfman
- Thursday, November 11, 2004 at 17:35:24 (EST)
Ya I think I can put him at number 3, but I'm being honest with you, just on this
list he's probably not gonna go up higher than that. Now if I make other lists like
this (eg. fusion, cool, bebop, post bop, New Orleans, etg.) than Miles will be
number 1. Not on the New Orleans obviously, now don't argue with that cuz
Miles never played New Orleans. Only N'Oleans guys can play N'Oleans. And
maybe nut bebop, cuz Dizzy Gillespie was thee bebop trumpeter. But definitley
fusion, cool, and maybe post.
Alvin
- Wednesday, November 10, 2004 at 22:12:16 (EST)
I agree with Jesse, even though we all know and love Miles as a cool
Jazz artist, hard bop was where he made his stake as a player, and
it's easy to see once you concentrate on his soloing. Nobody, I
repeat, NOBODY ever achieved the perfection Miles did with his
soloing. Dizzy Gillespie is famous for making wrong notes "fit,"
Miles never played a wrong note! Even in hard bop, with it's blinding
fast tempo, he still played some of the most perfect solos of any
instrument of any genre. You can keep Morgan at 2, but at least move
Miles up to 3.
Peter the great
- Monday, November 08, 2004 at 21:12:18 (EST)
Jesse, in overall music category, Miles beats Lee by a mile(s). But
in this category, Lee is just more of a hard bopper. Miles was a
great bebop, cool jazz, and fusion artist, and his overall work makes
him better than Lee, but not in hard bop. "Lee was one if not thee
questintial hard bopper." But on the trumpet page, I totally agree on
Miles being above Lee, but I don't think on this list he should be
above Lee.
Alvin
- Friday, November 05, 2004 at 21:45:24 (EST)
Look, I love Lee Morgan, I really do. The Sidewinder has some very flawed
pieces, but some pieces that show awsome potential (RIP). But I gotta give the
#2 spot to Miles; he produced so much more hard bop and I think his work with
Bird is in many ways more mature trumpeting than Morgan ever got to. I think
he would have surpassed Davis in the hard bop category had he lived, but I
question whether he actually achieved it.
Jesse
- Thursday, November 04, 2004 at 23:10:06 (EST)
Look, I love Lee Morgan, I really do. The Sidewinder has some very flawed
pieces, but some pieces that show awsome potential (RIP). But I gotta give the
#2 spot to Miles; he produced so much more hard bop and I think his work with
Bird is in many ways more mature trumpeting than Morgan ever got to. I think
he would have surpassed Davis in the hard bop category had he lived, but I
question whether he actually achieved it.
Jesse
- Thursday, November 04, 2004 at 23:09:30 (EST)
Alvin, I mentioned "Milstones" on the albums page, and I'm mentioning
it again here because of Miles playing. THAT is why I recommended him
for this list!
Peter the great
- Sunday, October 31, 2004 at 14:14:24 (EST)
Aaron, Melba is great. For more of her bone playing listen to some of the Dizzy Gillespie Big Band recordings, the trombone that you should here is Melba Liston. I think she was the best aranger next to Gil Evans. Almost every song Dizzy Gillespie played in the 50's was either aranged or composed by Melba, most people don't know that though. I will lower her some though. JJ was a lot hard bop, although he played pretty much every style he wanted to play. But his hard bop work was his best. If you haven't listened to these albums yet, I suggest you do.
The Eminent Jay Jay Johnson Vol. 1 and 2 (Definently listen to that)
Blue Trombone
Jay and Kai
Stan and Jay at the Opera House (I think that's what it's called)
And some more that you should listen to. Your right though, his early work was be-bop, mainly with Miles Davis. But he was also hard-bop, he definently showed that on his "Eminent" albums. I'll add Urbie to the list, I actually thought I did, but I guess I was wrong. As for Steve Davis, he will be added to the complete bone list when that's up. Although he won't be THAT high because the best bones came from New Orleans and Big Bands. It should be up in about a month, so hopefully in November. Thanks. And Keep that respect for the bone, most people don't. Peace.
Alvin
- Saturday, October 23, 2004 at 11:03:23 (EDT)
I've looked up Melba Liston. Actually, she appears to be pretty good and hardbopish. And although maybe not deserve to be number three in the list, it seems that should probably be there. I just got to get some of her records and find out.
Aaron
CT USA - Friday, October 22, 2004 at 22:59:19 (EDT)
Does it exactly have to be hardbop? For hardbop, there isn't much more to add. The 60's and 70's were pretty tough decades for the trombone except for the people you mentioned. And even some of those people, like J.J., Kai, and Frank Rosolino fell more into the bebop idiom of jazz. However, these people were so good, that I wouldn't edit them out of the list. Curtis Fuller was the pretty much the only recognizable hardbop trombonist. Still, I might add Urbie Green to the list because he was so influential in the time period considered the "hardbop era." As for modern hardbop trombonists, Steve Davis, who is greatly influenced by Fuller, plays thoughtful, hard-swinging jazz, although you may not want to add to your list.
Aaron
CT USA - Friday, October 22, 2004 at 22:54:02 (EDT)
Aaron, I'll change that. And the bone being one if not my favorite intstrument, I'm working on a trombone list that you should be intrested in visiting, I'll admit I'm having some trouble on it, would you mind sending me some names (make sure they aren't on this list because there all up on the list. Try to pick some underated ones, you know bones most people don't know about). Thanks
Alvin
- Friday, October 22, 2004 at 22:11:57 (EDT)
That's a good call for Jimmy Knepper. It doesn't get much better than his work with Charles Mingus, especially "Hatian Fight Song".
wolfman
- Friday, October 22, 2004 at 18:26:39 (EDT)
Frank Rosolino and Jimmy Knepper are both better than Melba Liston. Well actually, I can't say. Being a jazz trombonist, I shocked I've never listened to or heard of her. But the rest is right. All that is important is that Curtis and J.J. rule.
Aaron
CT USA - Friday, October 22, 2004 at 17:25:59 (EDT)
Again Alvin, I think you have done a spectacular job. My own changes? Well I was going to mention Elvin and Max Roach being moved above Art Blakey, but I see you already have a reason for your list. Saxophones are perfect.
Vince
- Wednesday, October 20, 2004 at 19:40:16 (EDT)
***Note***
The wind is real strong over here and I'm scared it's gonna turn into a tornado, just in case it does, and if it does it might be a bad one, I may not be on for a while, so the update information won't be up if there is one, but it will most likely be nothin. My tree's branches did break off though, and last time that happend a tornado came.
Alvin
- Tuesday, October 19, 2004 at 18:24:40 (EDT)
wolfman, thanks you really are helping a lot. I am making a lot of lists right now, a lot of them are like this, except different styles obviously (free jazz, be-bop, afro-cubop, etc.) but they won't be added as soon as some others (I also have a trombone list in the making, but am having a little bit of trouble). So the point is I am making a lot more lists, and since you have been a really big help on this one, go ahead and visit all of them. If you have any suggestions on my other two lists (the jazz ballads list and the 'live' jazz albums list) feel free to share them. Thanks
Alvin
- Monday, October 18, 2004 at 00:03:21 (EDT)
Also Also, I recommend that you take another listen to pianists Keith Jarrett, Bill Evans, and Ahmad Jamal.
And without a doubt, Bud Powell is a cornerstone for pianists, but his greatest work occurred during the bop era rather than the post-bop or hard-bop era I believe you are trying to specify.
wolfman
- Sunday, October 17, 2004 at 21:39:36 (EDT)
Also, Johnny Griffen and Eddie "Lockjaw" Davis under there too. However, as far as who to kick off is a good question. I leave it to you Alvin, but I would replace Golson, Ervin, and Jordan with the ones I named.
That is Kirk, Griffen, and Davis.
wolfman
- Sunday, October 17, 2004 at 21:31:19 (EDT)
Would like to see Rashaan Roland Kirk to be named under the top Tenor Sax section. Few had his talent and genius.
wolfman
- Sunday, October 17, 2004 at 21:28:59 (EDT)
Nice revisions Alvin, I like the adding of Miles.
Peter the great
- Sunday, October 17, 2004 at 20:21:32 (EDT)
- - - - - The List Was Revised At This Point - 10/17/04 - - - - -
sonny rollins rips,shreds, tears, and smokes. Tenor sax never sounded so good!
jeff salisbury
- Saturday, October 16, 2004 at 13:46:08 (EDT)
Larry Young, hammond b3 album = "Unity" awsome!
kelly
- Saturday, October 16, 2004 at 13:08:20 (EDT)
Would recommend Lee Konitz for the Alto Saxophone list.
wolfman
- Friday, October 15, 2004 at 03:54:39 (EDT)
Sandie, I'll add some hammond b3, I'll also add some vibes too, but not for another week or so.
Alvin
- Tuesday, October 12, 2004 at 01:01:14 (EDT)
Alvin
Great list- give me some time before I comment on the nitty gritty but it's really neat so far.
woody
- Monday, October 11, 2004 at 22:49:43 (EDT)
Alvin,
Great list!
George
Greensboro, - Monday, October 11, 2004 at 14:36:49 (EDT)
No Hammond B3 in here then?
Sandie
- Monday, October 11, 2004 at 08:35:51 (EDT)
Oh, don't expect me to demand the 1 spot Alvin! I know he was the definitive "cool jazz" artist. I just want the list to be correct. If you have any questions on this stuff, I'd love to help.
Peter the great
- Sunday, October 10, 2004 at 22:38:53 (EDT)
Peter, I was really wondering if I should add Miles. Miles is one of my favorite trumpet players, but I wasn't sure about this list just because all I've heard from him was be-bop, cool jazz, and fusion although his solos (mainly on Kind of Blue) sound like hard-bop. He is also mentioned on the hard-bop home page (http://members.tripod.com/~hardbop/musicians.html). So I might add him but honestly he won't be number 1 or 2, just because the main music he played was cool jazz, while Lee Morgan, Clifford Brown, and Freddie Hubbard pretty much only played hard-bop. I will also change Trane's hard-bop album to A Love Supreme.
Alvin
- Sunday, October 10, 2004 at 22:28:44 (EDT)
Great job Alvin putting 'Trane at one on the tenor page. We both know he more than deserved that. One question though, Miles Davis was certainly hard bop early in his career, But he's not in the top 10. I think he could definitely get at least the 10 spot. Also, A Love Supreme was primarily a free jazz/concept album, but it still had many aspects of the famous 'Trane hard bop. It's really not necessaringly THAT free of a record, especially when 'Trane has Ascension. Now THAT is avant-garde free jazz.
Peter the great
- Sunday, October 10, 2004 at 21:47:45 (EDT)
George, Hard-Bop is a style of jazz that mixes Be-Bop, Blues, and Gospil together (wierd mix huh?) but it sounds real neat. If you want to know what hard bop is, get any Jazz Messenger cd (Art Blakey, Lee Morgan, Horace Silver etc.) If you see at the top posted in the criteria, Satchmo, Diz, Miles, Benny Goodman, etc are excluded because they played different music, New Orleans Jazz, Be-Bop, Cool Jazz, and Big Band. Once you hear the jazz messengers, it will totally explain what hard bop is. And just in case you wondering, The Shape of Jazz To Come, and A Love Supreme, weren't hard-bop albums which is why they are excluded for Ornette Coleman and John Coltrane album. Those were there albums before they went to Free Jazz. Its a hard thing to explain, but when you listen to it youll get it. And if you're wondering why Elvin Jones and Max Roach are above Art Blakey on the drum page, it's because Art was thee hard bopper, he invented it! Just like Bird and Diz made be-bop. Get those albums up there, if you haven't already, and you'll love hard-bop right away.
P.S. Brownie and Lee are most likely gonna switch spots, but I'll see if I get any comments about it first. Hope you like the list!
Alvin
- Sunday, October 10, 2004 at 17:00:44 (EDT)
Well, I still don't quite get what Hard Bop means, since looking at all the artists here made me realize they're all so different...
So I can't really comment on the stylistic aspects.
But I do own a bunch of these albums... I am a big fan of Burrell's "Midnight Blue", Green's "Idle Moments", and Montgomery's "Incredible Guitar".... I feel like Pass's "Virtuoso" is quite overrated since it's so technical and feels tacked-on, I'm sorry to say.... although I do appreciate his craft and have lots of respect for him.
Is Dolphy's "Out For Lunch" too avant-garde to be considered for this list?
Great to see Bobby Timmons on there, btw. I think he tends to be forgotten or underappreciated sometimes.
Cool list, interesting format, good stuff... thanks, Alvin!
George #2
- Sunday, October 10, 2004 at 16:23:04 (EDT)
Welcome to my hard bop list. Feel free to have any comments or recomendations, but dont forget to view the list criteria posted at the top of the page!!
Alvin
- Sunday, October 10, 2004 at 13:48:41 (EDT)
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